Serial Number Question

[finsforever]

I have a 1959 Plymouth 2-door Savoy V8.

Now there's no serial tag in the door pillar nor a body tag in the engine bay. Upon searching on the Frame, I found a set of numbers that appear to have the characteristic's of what would appear to be a Serial Number for a 1959 Plymouth.

This was found on the outside of the drivers side frame just passed the rear wheel hump.

223-I04649

From researching a bit, Chrysler commonly used a captial i for the number 1.

The 2 at the beginning was very worn like it wasn't struck fully and maybe there was a character before that. Maybe a (M)??

233-104649

Now if you just add a M to the beginning, you get: M223-104649 which would appear to be a Serial number.

Other sites that deal with a broader range of Mopars have have been indecisive in confirming or denying this as a serial number located on the frame.

So I don't know if this something all 59 Plymouth's have or maybe just from a certain Assembly Plant.

I just need this confirmed by some other 59 owners.

Thanks
Daniel

[rogerh]

Hi Daniel,
I'm gonna spend the day thinking about your question, but I can tell you there is a number stamped on my car's frame in the same location. If I remember correctly, there is no correlation between the frame number and the car's serial number in a 1959 Plymouth. I remember going thru this when I prepared to title my car in this state (Washington).
Other makes, and "newer" cars had frame numbers matching serial numbers, to cut down on stolen cars. The agency wanted to be sure my car wasn't stolen.
I know a guy who works in the Oregon DMV..I will try to remember ask him.

[finsforever]

Anybody...Bump..

[rogerh]

Huh? (must be an Aussie expression?)

[Daniel Harris]

Roger, if this is an Aussie expression its sure news to me......haven't a clue what it means where abouts in Aus is finsforever from??

[Ron Keij]

OK here's the European answer: not Aussie but universal internet language. Bump is getting a topic up if there hasn't been activity for a while.
So Finsforever wants his answer badly and wants to keep the topic up. Sorry but I can't help him.

He has only two posts on this forum and he didn't write anything about his location. My guess is that he lives in the US.

Ron

[rogerh]

thanks, Ron! It was my mistake when I saw teh sign-off as Daniel, that it was Mr Harris in Aus..sorry mate!

[finsforever]

I was just hoping that someone with a 59 would check their stamped number on the frame at this location against their Serial number or Engine number and see if there's a connection to either one since I'm at a lost since I have no serial tag or body tag. And the number doesn't match the engine....but who knows, the motor could have been swapped long ago. There's a big cloud of mystery surrounding all this and I'm just trying to make some if any sense of it.

Sorry if I'm seem alittle moody, the car has been alittle bit of a headache thus far.

[rogerh]

We ALL get frustrated with our cars from time to time, Daniel!
Just now I sent off an email to John Fowlie, owner/operater of a salvage yard in California. He is a member of this List, and is a fountain of knowledge on things related to 1959 Plymouths, licensing, titles, VINs, etc. My contat in Oregon DMV didn't have anything to add to my belief that the '59 P frame numbers were not catalogued.
I think the '59 Imperial frames were recorded, and beginning in 1960, I think the Plymouths were recorded.
Someone else on this list has a Plymouth with non-original VIN Tag. Can't you apply for such at your local DMV? Is that what you are attempting, and they are asking you to supply as much info on car as possible? (I am impressed you found the stamped frame number!)

[finsforever]

I'm sure I could probably get the DMV to issue a custom VIN for it, it would be just like getting a dune buggy or kit car a vin. And since I live in Georgia which is a Bill of Sale Only State for 1985 and older. It shouldn't be hard, but I just thought it would be nice to have the original VIN for the car. She's getting a frame off resto and then being customed abit. Got big plans for her. 383 BB 727 trans, underdash AC, got a GM caliper disc brake conv. kit for it the other month. No trim on the sides, custom blue and white interior with a console through the middle. Going to give her a heavy metallic blue paint job.

Haven't started yet, collecting some parts at the moment. Going to Turkey Rod Run and the Moultrie Swap Meet in Feb. to scope out for some parts I'm looking for.

http://s993.photobucket.com/albums/af57/73Duster340/

[big m]

Howdy all,

I wish I could offer a definitive answer on this subject, but to my knowledge the VIN# being stamped on the chassis started with the unibody cars of 1960. Prior to that, it's my understanding that the engine serial number was stamped on the frame.

In my business, as a dismantler, the state of California reuires me to have on hand paperwork for every vehicle in the yard, and many times the VIN plate is missing altogether. In these instances, I have to locate a VIN on the frame, or drop the car off at the Highway Patrol office, where they bring in a specialist to determine the vehicle's VIN which is then stamped into an aluminum plate that is adhered to the door jamb.

If you know someone that works with the state police agency in your state, they may be able to assist you in locating the original VIN# although this is considered priveleged information, at least here in California.

---John

[rogerh]

If in fact the frame number is the engine number, then I believe John Quinn, Dick Koch, Jeffrey Bernard, and maybe John Fowlie are in a position where they might be able to research this by looking at their own cars. Both Quinn and Fowlie's cars are in pieces, Dick currently restoring his SF ht, jeffrey has his in storage-
I no longer have my original engine, so I cannot help.
It would be interesting to learn if there is a connection, but it won't help you find the original VIN.

[Fins59]

Just went out to the garage at midnight (nothing better to do on a Saturday nite here in the sticks of WI ) and checked frame on my SF. Sure enough, found a stamped # on outside of frame just rear of driver side rear tire and just a couple inches forward of the rear spring shackle. Never knew it was there.
But I cannot make out the number or any numbers so can't compare it to my VIN. My frame is painted so I tried light sandpaper, that made it worse, then I tried paint thinner and still can't read it. I got 2 other '59's I can take a look at maybe tomorrow. Those frames are rusty so maybe it'll be easier to read.
If Fins frame # M223-104649 is a VIN it would indicate a 1959 Plymouth Savoy V8 made in Evansville, IN and it was no. 4649 in production line. Heck, for DMV purposes, I might just use that as the VIN.

[finsforever]

My frame had alot of undercoating on it...I took a chisel and scraped pretty much all of it in the location of the numbers. And for the rust, I used local hardware store Klean-Strip Prep and Etch. put it in a spray bottle and spray it on anything with rust. Awesome stuff.

[rogerh]

Just an idea..make a "rubbing" of the area? Lay a sheet of white paper over the area, and use a crayon or pencil sideways?