'59 Plymouth Forum

So I pull Faulkner into the garage, and I pop the hood. And doncha know: I see antifreeze percolating on the left side of the intake manifold, even worse than when I had my mechanic pull it for this same reason.

...and he asked me, why did I have him pull it? According to him, there's no water exchange there.

And now I'm wondering...

Is it possible, that the intake manifold bolts into the 318 block penetrate the water jacket, just as the exhaust manifold bolts? And is the solution to pull the bolts, and permatex them?

Signed,
Phrustrated in Philly

Faulkner wrote:Is it possible, that the intake manifold bolts into the 318 block penetrate the water jacket, just as the exhaust manifold bolts? And is the solution to pull the bolts, and permatex them?

If this is the case, it's not documented in the shop manual -- at least, not as far as I can see. The shop manual only makes reference to the 6-cylinder exhaust manifolt cap bolts needing sealer, but not the V-8's -- yet, I know 318 exhaust manifold bolts leak if you don't permatex them, so they penetrate the water jacket. And a telltale sign, as I closer inspect my intake manifold: there's an evaporation stain coming from the head of a manifold bolt, with a trail leading to the pool where fluid was bubbling with the engine heat.

I think the bolts are the culprit, not the manifold gasket. Anyone else care to wager an opinion?

Dan

Faulkner wrote:
I think the bolts are the culprit, not the manifold gasket. Anyone else care to wager an opinion?

No takers? Guess it's time to give Ed Eckerson a call...

Dan

I find it puzzling that your mechanic didn't see moisture or even rust? on one or more bolts as he took them out (to replace the gasket).
Just found the following words in the Shop Manual..."if the manifold mounting stud threads are stripped or damaged, they should be replaced. Examine the long bolts for signs of water leakage around threads and in bolt holes in cylinder block. If leakage of coolant is evident, coat threads with a suitable sealer at installation of manifold assembly." These sentences are in a section titled Exhaust and Intake Manifold Inspection. While it is not clear which manifold (intake or exhaust)they are referring to, the sentences just prior to the above deal with cleaning the "hot spot" of the Intake manifold.

I see what you mean..nowhere is there specific information on whether some intake manifold bolts enter an area containing coolant.

Faulkner wrote:So I pull Faulkner into the garage, and I pop the hood. And doncha know: I see antifreeze percolating on the left side of the intake manifold, even worse than when I had my mechanic pull it for this same reason.

Well, I had really jumped to conclusions. It wasn't antifreeze -- that would of course have been green -- but more than likely fuel. I called Ed Eckerson and we discussed; he thinks more than likely, I'm running rich and the fuel is blowing out the throttle plate rod. And that makes sense, because the stuff is evaporating, just as you would expect gasoline to do. And he inspected the heads on a 318 he had; the intake bolts do not penetrate the water jacket.

Is it worse than it was before? Hard to say. But nothing to worry about, Ed says. What I am worried about, is the pool of antifreeze on the rubber mat; it has to be coming from one of the exhaust bolts, I think. And that is worse than before.

Dan

I KNOW that my carb leaks fuel, but it comes out the opposite side from yours, Dan.
ANd you also have a pool of antifreeze on the floor...hey, Matthew!...
I have a pool of power steering fluid on the floor...if only I"d make time to see ezactly where it is coming from, maybe I could make the Dick Koch repair...

rogerh wrote:ANd you also have a pool of antifreeze on the floor...hey, Matthew!...

Well, I had supposed that my problem with antifreeze had to do with exhaust manifold bolts; that's one of the things I had my mechanic look at. But today I put Faulkner up on the ramps (didn't get around to installing your lift, yet, Dick ), and crawled under. Lo and behold -- all the exhaust manifold bolts are bone dry. But, antifreeze is slowly dripping from the passenger side of the car...

And then I see it. It seems to be slowly seeping out from under the head! Right at the rearmost bolt... Oh No!

Could it be that by my mechanic putting some pressure on the heads -- either by pulling and permatexing exhaust manifold bolts, or by reseating the intake manifold -- the head loosened up a tiny bit? I remember when I got my flathead six rebuilt, the engine guy told me to retorque the head bolts after a time. I never did that for this rebuilt engine -- is that something I should have done? Should I try to retorque the exposed head bolts, and see if that stops the leak?

The good news is, there's no water in the oil. But this is scary stuff -- and I don't want to do the wrong thing. Any one have some good advice for me?

Dan

I just spoke to Ed Eckerson; Ed says that, while the intake manifold bolts don't penetrate the water jacket, the surfaces of the intake manifold do come in contact with water passages. There's a chance that the leak is coming from there...

Ed seems to feel that of the two, it's more likely that it's the head gasket -- and that it couldn't hurt to pull the valve cover, and try to retorque the bolts. But to me, given that the intake manifold has just come off -- and, that the leak is worse than it ever was now -- that could be implicated.

Ed told me to clean the area up real good, put some water color paint on the area, fire it up and let it come up to pressure -- then turn it off. He thinks that will reveal where the problem lies.

(Hey -- maybe the intake manifold bolts need to be retorqued...)

Dan

Faulkner wrote:(Hey -- maybe the intake manifold bolts need to be retorqued...)

And that's exactly what I'm going to do -- first. It turns out, there's a little pool of antifreeze in a recess at the back of the block, where it mates up with the bell housing, well above where the head meets the block. This sucka is leaking from the intake manifold -- lucky for me.

And if I have to pull the intake manifold, I'll do it myself. I have an extra gasket kit from a shipping mistake.

Dan

Every stinkin' bolt was under 30 foot-lbs; every stinkin' one. Probably somewhere between 20-25. I started at the center, went side to side, working my way to the ends (sound familiar, Roger? ), and snugged it up. Gave it a nice coat of high-temp silver, slapped the coil and carb back on, started it up, brought it up to temperature... Then started looking all around. And I saw...



...the leaks were gone!

Thanks to Ed Eckerson, yet again, for his sage advice. This could have been ugly, but it ended up being inconsequential. Feel like I dodged a bullet (and seriously worried about making Carlisle).

Now, back to making pretty. The mechanicals are in good shape, for the shape their in.

Oh yeah: With the carb off, I can see there's significant play in the throttle plate rod. That's definitely where the fuel is coming from. I had this carb rebuilt two years ago; don't know what that's about. I guess I'll take it back this winter.

Dan

Carb re-builders don't always "re-shaft" (I forget the correct term...re-bush?) the carb. You gotta ask for it, most times.
In fact, that may be what's wrong with mine..I did not ask for a re-bush..

More thinking: you may not need an accelerator pump after all..if teh throttle shaft leaks badly, there would be a loss of performance for sure!

rogerh wrote:More thinking: you may not need an accelerator pump after all..if teh throttle shaft leaks badly, there would be a loss of performance for sure!

Mebbe. But, performance (i.e., stutter on acceleration from a dead stop) isn't my only problem. I have hard starts after several days of not running. I'm told that's the fuel draining from the carb... and my recollection is that the accelerator pump could be implicated in that, too. No?

Dan

So I have been told. My carb was cleaned and rebuilt..oh. two yrs ago? Fuel does leak out the throttle shaft, discoloring the manifold paint. In order to start the car, I have to crank the starter a long time if the car sits for more than two days. I assumed this was due to a weak fuel pump, allowing fuel to drain back to the tank.
HEY, SOMEONE OUT THERE, will Dan and I have to keep diagnosing this on our own?! (Heh heh)