'59 Plymouth Forum

Well my car isn't "perfect" it needs a few things and its not running the best, but I'll get into that in a minute.

First the items:

1. I'd like to get my hands on the original air cleaner assembly for the car. It currently has a chrome aftermarket cleaner and it looks nice, but its not original and therefore it must leave. My father changed it for the aftermarket one sometime in the early to mid 80's... then one day while cleaning out his garage in the early 90's he thought he'd never need the "dumb thing" so he threw it away Now we can't find another one.

2. A NOS or original replacement Carter carbuerator. Also is there a felt or fiberglass spacer that goes between the carb and the intake? I and my Father seem to recall there is suppose to be one, but I can't find it in the garage, and I can't find info on it on the web?? We have rebuilt the original carb twice and the car still dies when you try to accellerate hard from a standstill. The accelerator pump works, but the car still stalls. We installed an Edelbrock 600cfm (I worked at a parts store when I was in my teens and they had a bunch of them so they sold me one for $100) This carb works good, but seemed to run fat, so I consulted a local "Mopar guru" We've re-jetted the carb with 2 different setups and also changed the float level so there isn't as much fuel in the bowl.... It will hold the accelleration with the Edelbrock (no matter the config) but when you "get on it" the car just doesn't roar to life... Its really slow compared to what I remember from several years ago. You really have to get on the gas to get up to speed. This isn't the big issue though, I need to get the car running first, keep reading

3. The tube or hose that runs from the buttons to the transmission took a small rock one day some years back. Now there is a hole in it that I cannot seal. So when I fill the tranny with fluid, the next day there will be a puddle under the car, then I'll add a quart then a puddle, you get the idea. I've never taken that assembly apart otherwise I could clamp another tube over it if I had to, but I'd like to replce it..... is it hard and where can I get a new tube how do I take it apart.......


Wellness:
The car really does run like crap.
Symptoms: From nearly the second you start the car there is
missfire, but it seems to run fairly well and is driveable, just not powerful, up to about 15-20 minutes when it gets all warmed up. Then you nearly have to run wide open to get moving and it really won't run much faster than 60 mph, soon as you let off the gas and slow up a bit it really starts running bad, the miss is horrible then and it shakes the whole car even at speed. If you stop it immediately quits and is very hard to start.

Troubleshooting:
I've installed new points, condensor, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, tried both carbs, different timing, I'm right close to 12-13* now. Some years back the engine was rebuilt and heads were re-done with new valves and hardened seats so it doesn't need leaded fuel. I've tried Chevron premium, with a fuel system additive, non-vented and vented fuel cap, an electric fuel pump, I'm back to the original pump. I've been thinking it was heat boiling the gas in the line before the carb. So I spaced the fuel lines away from the heads and anything hot. I've installed new fuel filters both clear inline and metal inline. Added a HD aux tranny cooler the Radiator was completely redone by a close friend of mine that is a radiator repair man, and we flow tested it at 32 gallons/min. Compression is right at 165psi on all 8, I've never had an engine that was exactly the same on all 8 before, but where they are all that high its not a burned valve... That is where I am at currently with testing... I have since done: Installed a 160* Therm. I'm trying to get more air through the radiator with a 6blade solid fan from an old Dodge with A/C. I also ordered a better set of plug wires and installed them. I will test these tomorrow if I get a chance, right after I take the pictures I promised.

I also would like to try a new carb, but I am skeptical if cooling is really the issue or not. Could the coil be the source, I havn't tried a new one yet, but I'm sorta going all directions because my father thinks its the heat causing it to vapor lock, one shop thinks its the carb, another thinks its the ignition, and another thought it was not enough fuel, another guy thought it was too much fuel. I just don't really know what it is anymore and therefore I'm just confused and doing everything

Current thoughts: If the 160 therm and fan does not resolve the issue, (and I don't think it will) then I was going to replace the coil try new points and condensor again, then I wanted to try to find that original carb spacer (if its suppose to have one) and a new carb. Also, exactly what plugs should I install. I have AC Delco's in there now, but I don't exactly remember the number... what are the recommendations?
A thought came to my father, that I have personally never seen, is it possible the timing chain skipped one or two teeth? I highly doubt that could be it, but it does have a small miss that gets worse so I don't know. Oh I had most of the exhaust system replaced, new mufflers and tail pipes, it sounds good, better than it runs though

I think the next thing I'm going to do is rip out the 318 and install the warmed up 383B that I have sitting in the garage... I know it runs awsome.

So what do you think? Any and all info would be appreciated... I know its a lot of stuff but help in any area of it would be appreciated the car is not going to any more shows until its running, its too embarrassing pulling in the show with a car that runs like a 20 yr old clapped out clunker! (but this one doesn't smoke)

1) is your car 2 bbl or 4 bbl..I have an extra 59 Ply air filter with large opening for 4 bbl. I dont believe there needs to be a spacer...someone put it there to keep heat from boiling fuel (vapor lock)
2) You have enough people offering opinions..but here is one more..I think your timing is off (are you using a timing light) If so, you still may have the spark wires out of order I have done this several times...thinking #1 cylinder is where it isnt. I think it is on the DRIVER'S side, to the front of the engine.

3) you may have jumped a tooth on the timing chain. Then the camshaft will be out of sync with compression..
4) a 383 will really liven that car up!
5) there is no tube running from pushbutton-to-transmission...shifting is done via cable. There is a filler pipe for your transmission..if that got damaged, you will have leaks. Please clarify.

roger

Thanks for the info, I should have clarified a little more.
It has the factory 4-bbl so if you have a air cleaner you'd like to sell that would be great.

I have used a timing light when I timed it. I think you could be right about the wires not in the right order it is very possible. I found an old service manual for the '59 so I am going to check into that today. I'll change the wires if necessary then re-time the car.

I also have a lead on the stalling with the factory Carter carb. It appears I can adjust the timing of the accelerator pump activating. I think its spraying too late so I'll play with that and see what I come up with, I'd like to go back to the original carb.

As for the leaky transmission. I'm thought it is from the shifter linkage, but its been a while since I've been under the car. I'll take another peak today while I'm working on it.

The felt spacer would be there to prevent vapor lock, and I thought it came from the factory that way, but I'm not sure.

Stay tuned for more findings and pictures, The weather has cleared up a bit.

and so I have learned your name is Cody.
Thanks for the history of your car. Thanks for your persistence, keeping it in the family et al.
I have a tune up sheet for 1961 361 cid. It shows the firing order as

8 7
6 5 driver's side
4 3
2 1

V
front of car.
I would often flip drivers for passenger sides...
another possibility is the distributor is installed 180 degrees off, but I think it wouldnt run at all..remember that the distributor turns counter-clockwise, set your spark wires in the cap accordingly.
So the easiest things first...check spark wiring. then do the timing light.
I will send you a pic of the air filter..whats your email address?
Checking for a jumped timing chain..seems you'd have to take the valve cover off the drivers side, take out the spark plugs and see if the rise of the piston on #1 coincides with the two valves being closed. But I'm not a mechanic!
I do think you have a fuel problem as well as ignition problem. Yes, you can adjust the link so that the accelerator pump kicks in sooner..
roger

Excellent, my e-mail is v_2cody@hotmail.com

You know the funny thing is, this is the simplest car I have and yet its giving the most problems

Excellent detective work, Roger.

Cody, I've had a leak from my transmission cable, because the O-ring inside the transmission housing was worn. You have to remove the cable to replace the O-ring, and it's a bit of a hassle; there's a thread on the mailing list for http://www.forwardlook.net about it. If you think this might be it, let me know and I'll dig it up. BTW, it will permit fluid to leak through the plastic cladding of the cable, if there's a perforation.

Dan

Thats a good thought on the transmission cable, thanks for the info on that. I'll find the thread for that and save it for later. That is step 3 of operation "Run Sweet"

Heres my day:

Re-installed the Edelbrock carb with 3/4" spacer (It runs a little better with this carb for right now)

Checked ignition is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 and according to my repair manual (Plymouth '58 ) it goes clockwise around the distributor. I doublechecked the timing, vaccum advance is working and I adjusted base timing a little to 11.5*-12* exactly. The book suggested 10*, it was at 8* I adjusted past 10 to see if it really made a difference. It gave it a little more power for a little while, I put some Chevron 88 and ran it for a while. about 8-10 minutes later I felt a noticable miss at partial throttle (enough to shake the car) if I continued to drive it the car would have trouble running when I sat at a light just like before.

So I went back home and checked the wires again, none were loose. Timing was still set correctly. I pulled a few plugs to check the gap and see how they are burning. Gap is .035 and they look to be burning ok. The plugs are AC R45S. Are these too hot, cold....? As for the distributor being 180* around.. its possible, it was apart when I painted the engine. Is the distributor vaccum diaphram suppose to be located on the passenger side of the engine? The thing is, the car runs pretty good for about 8-10 minutes. Once the car heats up sufficiently its running bad..... shucks I don't know what to think.

okay, good job so far. I will have to look in the 59 manual to see if 318 distributor rotation stayed with the clockwise direction.
Everybody with a 318 should be chiming in about vac advance location, but what I meant was the rotor shaft is slotted, so if you loosenand remove the distributor, the shaft can fit the slot correctly or 180* off. But I am pretty sure that isnt your problem if it runs well when cool.

I recall someone writing in to FL about heat-related problems. They finally discovered that the wire running into the distributor had a crack in the insulation, and heat and oily wire combined to make a short...this could account for your "miss". Also, coils get old and then when they get hot they malfunction.
I took a pic of the air cleaner I have. I think I was wrong,,,it looks like a small opening (for 2 bbl)..I must have sold the others. I have an idea where one might be had..try kjosephson@sprintmail.com...you can tell him I sent you

also, it sounds goofy, but go out tonight in the dark and start your car. Open the hood and look and listen...look for sparking wires signifying short circuits.
You can use a timing light to test the operation of the vacuum advance. Get the light going, then disconnect/reconnect the vacuum line to see if the ltiming mark moves..

Good thought roger,

I tested it in the dark, didn't see anything. Pics will be delayed because it was storming and now that its good weather I have the distributor out of the car, so I can't move it out of the garage, wich is ok because I'll hopefully get it on the road within a week or so. The car show circuit is about to start and I want to have the car running so I can go.

I've been doing a lot of research, I found the articles on the transmission shifter linkage and that describes what I have, so since the buttons work well, I'll split a tube and RTV seal it.

Next, I found that the coil connection was not entirely correct. Apparently the coil was connected wrong after we painted the motor, The resistor-condenser is connected to the + side or the coil and according to the wireing diagram it should be on the - side. This could account for some things. I also found that its possible the wrong condenser has been installed in the distributor. The car has a single-contact set Auto-Lite distributor but the condensor that is in it appears to be for a Chrysler distributor. I'll attach a photo of what I'm talking about. Also AC45S is the correct plug for the car according to the conversion charts. I've pulled them and they are burning excellent so this is not likely an issue.

Auto-Lite: This is the one the pictures in the repair manual show.


Chrysler: This is listed for a Chrysler distributor and was installed in the car at the last tune.


So, tomorrow I'll order the new coil and new correct condenser for this application. Then I'll re-install the dist and plugs, and re-time the engine to the proper 10* and see where I'm at. I hope its running correctly at that point so I can move on to the carb, transmission leak, and start digging around for an air-cleaner.

I'll keep you posted.

Ok its running much better, but I'm not there yet, plus a new issue developed that will put the pictures even further behind.

The correct condenser and new coil helped, but still did not resolve the issue totally. I did some more research and we figured a couple of things out..... In looking at photos we realized the distributor was too far advanced to be correct. Anyhow by rotating the dist and retarding the timing a lot, so the orientation of the vaccum module looked correct (It was almost touching the coil to start with) Then moving each plug wire 1 spot (Counter clockwise). We fired the car and it roared to life.....

During that test run it had about %15 more power and better throttle response. But the partial throttle miss began to show again though the car run much better overall and I think it would make it to a show, but that is simply not going to do for me..... I decided to play with the original carb and continue testing...

I re-installed the original carb and changed the accellerator pump linkage position so it would spray early. This helped the take-off issues I was having with this carb, but I still need some adjustment for that to be perfect. However, shortly into this test run I noticed antifreeze dripping into the passenger floor area Heater Core!...

So I quickly nursed it home, didn't want it to blow out totally. During that short run I could tell the miss would still be evident though and thus began more research......


During the last tune and when we were painting the engine we set the valve/lifter clearance adjustment to proper specs while the engine was cold, at-least I beleive it was (Its been a long time) So in thinking about this warmed only miss I'm getting it could be : Since the clearance was set to spec when the engine was cold, the expansion from heat causes the valves to be slightly open when the engine is heated and that would cause a significant miss. Luckily the car has not had that much driving and the compression test concurrs that we have had no valve burning or damage from this.......

Plan, First fix heater core issue, then warm engine, remove covers and set lash to spec correctly for a warm engine. Replace valve cover gaskets and re-install covers. Continue testing.... then tweak accellerator adjustment a little more for proper take-off.

Hopefully I'm on the right track, it was peculiar really, as the engine heats you can start to hear lifter ticking, then its gone, then just valve noise and it does sound like some of the valves are not closing properly....

Anyhow, you guys think I'm on the right track? I'll keep you informed as usual, but I've got to track down some harder to find parts now

Stupid, 50 year old, heater core! shame on it for being that old

Cody -- don't rule out the prospect that you have a bad heater control valve. They're notorious for springing leaks... You see NOS ones on eBay all the time, I recently picked one up myself.

Dan

It easily could be I suppose. The bad thing is, that if the problem is the heater core, I can't find any replacements readily available, but I do have a good friend at a radiator shop who may be able to rebuild it for me. I have seen the heater control valves so it may be that.

I've had the chance now to re-adjust the driver side valves... The book shows running HOT clearances at .010 intake .010 exhaust for the I6 engine and .008 intake and .018 exhaust for all V8's

I think the engine had been set at the 6 cyl settings, because all of the intake valves were too loose. The exhaust valves however were set anywhere from .006-.010. They were too tight when the engine was hot. I re-adjusted both intake and exhaust properly and re-installed that valve cover, I ran out of time so I will tear into the passenger side tonight. More to come, but I think I'm making good progress here.

I have two heater cores laying around...how should I test them and, if they are okay, send them to you for cost of shipping?

Cody, if it's a heater valve you need...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... gory=33545

Dan