WHY NO PLYMOUTHS IN THE 1959 DAYTONA RACE?

[RICKYMOPAR]

I was just wondering! The reason why? Lee Petty won the race in an Oldsmobile, by 2 feet ahead of a Thunderbird. Only one De Soto and one Dodge racing? I know someone will be able to answer.

[Bernie B.]

Here's best guesses, and some other 1959 Daytona-related tidbits to chew on. Essentially, there was no sponoship back then except for some back door factory support such as Lee Petty getting the Oldsmobile deal back in 1957... but it is reported that he had to buy the 1959 car, it wasn't given to him. Plymouths had a 361 top cubic inch engine, other brands like Olds were considerably larger. Not sure but I wouldn't be surprised if the T-Birds ran the 430 instead of the 352. That's a topic for another day. 1958 Plymouths weren't competing to develeop a year's worth of experience with the "B" engine as the rules limited to one four barrel carb, and 1958's were dual quads only. I certainly remember seeing the close finish of Petty-Beauchamp on TV many times long ago.

Other racers simply "run what they brung" and most were into Ford and Chevrolet due to past racing development (especially pre the famous 1957 AMA ban on factory involvement in racing.) By 1959 there was quite a bit of experience with those two brands, maybe the factories kept some parts flowing discreetly, especially by the Smokey Yunick and Holman-Moody organizaitions. Yunick was most famous for Chevrolet involvement but did prepare other cars too, including Pontiacs. Little support for Chrysler brands existed on a competitive level after 1957, perhaps even after 1956. Mostly independents. In the 1958 beach race, (video) before moving to the Speedway for the 500, I can see only one 57-58 Plymouth and one 56 Fury "convertible." So, to use a baseball term, the bench wasn't too deep by the 1959 Daytona 500. As you pointed out there was one 1957 Dodge (probably the D-501 354 Hemi) and one 1959 DeSoto entered. I found quite a bit about that DeSoto on the internet, and it represents the first entry of the "B" engine into Daytona history. It wasn't too far removed from a showroom stock car, and was even driven to Daytona from the upper midwest, Wisconsin I think. Makes me think of Dave Marcis and my all time Nascar hero, Alan Kulwicki.

Plymouths weren't even entered in any of the Daytona qualifying races. Just the Dodge and DeSoto as above.

But there were Plymouths at Daytona Beach in 1959, and one of them "won" it's class but was later disqualified. I'm referring to the timed mile runs on the beach, sometimes called the "century club" and part of the Pure Oil trials which were somewhat for advertising as much as true evaluations.

I have a car mag from the spring of '59 showing the beach runs, and there are three 59 Plymouths visible in the lineup. One fairly close up is a dark color Sport Fury, the others far back but identifiable. The fourth car, not in this picture, is the white Sport Fury from Connecticut shown in my showcase. I met that owner back in 1999, but had seen a picture of it taken in 1959 at Sanford, Maine drags - saw it back in 1975 by the guy who took the picture. Ironically, the "photographer" lives in Daytona today. Richie Almquist told me he went 130 mph on the beach with this Sport Fury, using non-stock dual quads carburetion, so it wasn't eligible for class records.

The one car that set a record, at 123 mph, was a single-4 barrel Golden Commando with automatic transmission, but the owner is unknown to me, or even what the car looked like. It was written up in Mechanix Illustrated (think of "Uncle Tom" McCahill) and other magazines - disqualified for "undersized valves" - Yes, due to a Chrysler specification error, the info provided to AMA lists 2.08 / 1.74" valve sizes when we all know we have 1.95 / 1.60" valves in the Golden Commando for 1959. That same info discrepancy appears in the red factory supplement service manual. They didn't use that valve size for another year, or even three, but obviously the factory was doing early performance development of the "B" engine.

So, and sorry to take so long to tell the story, it appears no racer was willing to try to run a Plymouth at that time, but soon after we got our start with Lee Petty contacting Chrysler for help shortly after the 500 and ended up with 4 '59 Plymouths, with Richard Petty getting the first major win with a convertible that year. And the rest, actually all of this, is history. I went to Daytona only once, for the 1976 race, but that might have been the best one of all to go to. Got no complaints at all about that experience, but not as much info as I'd like on the 1959 Plymouth on the beach story, so I hope there is more out there for someone else to supply.

[Bernie B.]

I just found the names of two drivers of 1959 Plymouths on the beach speed runs - Mel Welch and Melvin Jackolow. One was from New York, not sure about which right now, just found this info digging on the internet. Also remembered that Jack Sharkey from Chicago ran a 58 Plymouth with a 413 in some experimental class, remember reading about that in one of the small car magazines popular in the early 60's, there was a story about swapping the block, and an engine compartment photo, you can tell it is a 58 due to the different heater. Chrysler used Sharkey's name and picture in some ads in 1963 for the Super Stock 426 cars. Hope someone else can dig up more info.

Oh yes, more on the DeSoto that ran the first 500 - owner/driver was Bernie Hentges from Anoka, Minnesota. Believe he is still around, found more info on a Nascar history site. One color picture of the DeSoto makes it appear white, although it is called beige in another write-up. 383 four barrel car, originally with Torqueflite but converted to manual transmission. Lasted 350 miles before a valve spring retainer broke - it was an aftermarket part, not OEM Chrysler. FYI.

[RICKYMOPAR]

Wow! a lot of information. I would like to address the 1959 valve size issue. The 2.080 1.740 sizes were only used on the 300E 380HP engine possibly a few dozen, maybe never used in speed week. Chrysler engineering was stating max allowable. The smaller valve size in the B engines were perfect for street performance being they aid in port velocity and helped fill the cylinders of the smaller displacement engines. The 361 would run circles around the Ford 352. The the 430 lincoln power in the 59 thunderbird was a steet monster but could not turn the RPM the 361 or 383 could. The Oldsmobile 394 was a better all around performer over the standard Ford or Mercury.
I was just wondering why, Plymouth won alot of NASCAR races even with the old L head engines. Bill France Director of NASCAR raced and won with Plymouth L head engines. I know that if you wanted to race you needed help from the manufactures, no mater what the AMA agreement in 1959 stated. Chrysler sent engineering personel to Daytona's San Juan Motors for the customer's aid for those that wanted to compete in the flying mile. A clinic of suggestions to help make things work better in combination. Chrysler sent test and mule cars for testing, and hired drivers, amature and professional.

[Bernie B.]

First I want to thank you for starting this thread, been looking on the web and finding tons of info on 1959 Daytona 500 - it is out there, just need to dig. Saw pictures of Lee Petty's Plymouths when they first got them on the track later in the year, not a scratch so it is probably first day out. Look really nice, and the Petty Blue paint appears to be applied by dipping rather than spraying, everything is blue, everything - except the front airfoil pan which was removed! Probably would have been faster leaving it on.

As to valve sizes, I think the 300E used 1.60" exhaust, with the first appearance of 1.74" in the 1960 300F GT Specials, then the 1962 appearance of what later became known as the 300J head which was really a 1963 car, but the heads appeared on select 1962 cars including the "paper only" 383 cu. in. - 343 hp engine with dual quads inline. Had higher compression, bigger valves, much more cam and bigger heads than 1959 yet rated for lower horsepower than either Dodge or DeSoto similar dual quad 383's for 1959. Horsepower wars indeed. We who lived through those days and followed the drags quickly saw how horsepower ratings got played with for class advantage back then, the most infamous being the original 428 Cobra Jet Mustangs rated 335 hp.

Back to 1959 races, from web photos you can see the 57 Dodge, black with a gold roof, and the 340 hp on the hood, confriming D501.

Factory support was happening as you say, just not as overt as needed in time for the Daytona 500. Richie Almquist told me Ronnie Householder from Chrysler helped him over the years, but I don't know when they met. I did have the very good fortune to meet drag racer Al Eckstrand at a Chrysler event at Englishtown, NJ in 1999, and asked him a question about the 1962 Dodge Dart that he ran. After he answered, I pulled out a photocopy of a black and white picture of my car taken back in 1967, when it was painted maroon, but looked black in the photo, and showed him, making small talk of my early drag racing in pure stock with my first car. He seemed surprised to see one of those cars and asked me where I got it. Started to tell him it was my first car, etc., and he said "No, I mean that emblem on the rear fender." So I simply said it was the standard trim medallion on the Sport Fury... then he dropped a bombshell. He said, as near an exact quote as I can remember, "Chrysler - Ronnie Household built one of them for me, for drag racing. It was a hardtop, and they put the 300 E engine in in, and put the 300 emblem up there (on the fender.) He seemed to be genuinely surprised to see a picture of a 1959 Plymouth at that time. A few months later, magazine articles about him started appearing, written about Al's racing history and especially the 1966 Hemi Charger he had knew and was displaying at Englishtown that day. He was not a billed-in personality, more of a last minute addition, but did participate in a round table discussion of old time racing with Garlits, Muldowney, Landy, and Maverick who were the advertised stars of the day. Whether my showing him that picture jogged his memory, or he had already been interviewed and discussed his brief encounter with a 59 Plymouth and my showing up was just interesting timing I don't know.

One magazine, called Forward, the official publication of Chrysler Historical even had a right-rear quarter view of a black with white roof 59 Plymouth, with a 300 emblem in place of our standard emblems accompanying their article on Al Eckstrand in late 1999 or 2000. Was it something created for that photo or does the car really exist? I wonder. Whoever had that car is probably not a member on this website, I am continually surprised at how many 59's are out there. As for Nascar racing, found several other pictures of Savoy two door sedans racing, but the first Petty pictures are definitely hardtops. Oh yes, there is also a picture of a white 59 Sport Fury convertible as pace car out there, probably at Darlington... Southern 500 most likely.

Keep the info coming.

[RICKYMOPAR]

I agree on some of your specs.I have books showing 1.74. exhaust in 59 300E.I believe these were very rare. All I know is only the short ram engine of 60,61,62,63 and 64 utilized 1.740 exhaust valves. Early 440 engines 66 used 1.60 and only about 1/3 of the 67 440 engines used the 1.740 exhaust valves. I also show max wedge 413 62 chrysler 300 sport and 426 Chrysler 300 with 1.88 exhaust valve diameters. not H or J. Oh well i was just suprised no Plymouths were run In the Daytona 500 mile race.

[Bernie B.]

With possibly a few exceptions 300E defiinitely had only 1.60 exhaust valves, There was something on the Forward Look site a year or two ago about a special program where Chrysler snuck modified 300E engines into a couple convertibles, blue and white paint schemes, Windsor body I think. Engines had higher compression, larger valves, and probably different heads - ports larger, not sure if cam was different. Interestingly rated at 405 hp instead of 380. Too much more to the story to drag out here... I'm sure the 1962 405 hp short-long ram cars had 1.74" exhaust. I've seen one of those cars in person several times. 1.88 were race engines only, required bore notching for clearance in 413 engines, not sure about the 63 426. I too have lots of print info but not easily accessable, all in storage, just going off the top of my head. One last tie in between Daytona and high performance MoPars, today is 51 years exact since Andy Granatelli went 179 mph on the beach with the blown 300F GT special - quite an accomplishment, wasn't it!

[RICKYMOPAR]

STP Andy Granatelli's 300 F ran on Daytona beach in the flying mile before he purchased and modified it. 1961 Andy's company Paxton installed Twin Paxton superchargers if I am not mistaken, the next year he ran an R3/4 Avanti Studebaker That also ran two superchargers . Salt Flats.. also where later 2 or 3 Pont A Mousson equiped 300 F's perished testing tires. Andy Drumm the former Director of Nevada Highways purchased the engineer's Mule 300F, also a four speed, Good thing this car never went to the Armory for tech inspection, I think the car was lent Bud Faubel for the flying mile time speed trials.
I have alot of classified Chrysler Information and training text. My father was a Masters graduate of Chrysler Institute. He wants his papers to be donated back to the Chrysler archives. I am trying to talk him out of it, Fiat could care less.

[Bernie B.]

You have quite a pedigree in MoParville! Have you visited the museum? The paperwork you speak of is very special, and you are right about its preservation.

So much has been written about the 300F GTs by people who know them well I cannot really add much except to say I've been aware of them for well over 40 years through magazines, and now the internet. The Granatelli brothers, all three of them, autographed a few bits of memorabilia for me about ten years ago, including the Autolite ad featuring Andy at the 1961 Daytona runs. Very nice people. I had a fortunate and completely by surprise contact with a Paxton Industrial salesman at that time who set it up for me. I saw Bud Fauble at the 2007 Carlisle show but never was smart enough to go and speak to him. His 64 Dodge Hemi car was inside that garage display that they set up and he was talking with someone when I came to that area. The name Andy Drumm rings a bell, but I thought he had the one convertible GT special. Not sure. Granatelli defiinitely had his car in 1960, the Daytona run in 1961 was perhaps the last hurrah for it, I don't know. I think it is not presently accounted for but 4 or 5 of those cars still exist, right?

Before Andy got involved with the Avanti speed runs he also did twin Paxton-blown 1962 Plymouth Fury and a 1962 Chrysler 300 in late 61 or early 62, written up in some car magazines of the day. Plymouth was inline dual quads, and the Chrysler had the 405 hp long rams. That 62 Plymouth was restored by Frank Spittle and on display at Don Garlits' museum in recent years, not sure if it is still there. The '62 Chrysler is somewhat obscure, but one thing that stands out in memory is that it went 145 mph in a half-mile drag that was being done out in California back then.

And to tie this comment back to 1959 Plymouths, I also remember a story in Hot Rod magazine about a 59 Plymouth with a 361 that went 118 in the half-mile drags, and the same car ran 103 in the 1/4 mile. That was quick, not sure if it was modified at that time, but as you said even stone stock they were quite quick when running right. Loved the tire chirp when the Torqueflite hit second gear.

[Bernie B.]

Oops - correction on the 1/2 mile speed of Andy Granatelli in the 1962 Chrysler. Only 134, not 145 as I thought. Just found a video of it on YouTube. I try to be accurate.

[RICKYMOPAR]

I guess we are off topic but the information is interesting. I have met very few of the many performance personalities. My dad's opinion is that all the letter series Chrysler's are G. T. or Grand touring. I have seen the Drumm 300F Coupe, By accident. While visiting my wife's family, they said I had to go see Uncle Curly's Chrysler. I understand he purchased a large amount of toys from the Drumm estate. The black coupe was unusual with a modified console, wide modified right front 300 E seat and a business band car phone, The trunk deck was a New Yorker style sans the toilet seat, sitting on 15 inch wheels. and a 15" new blue streak in the trunk! I saw paperwork but was too shocked to see this 300 F Pont A mousson four speed legend, and the pallets of NOS Parts from the early 60's. Hearing stories of this machine and accidentally running across it was sureal! I was offered the car for a reasonable price in the late 1980's, I had to refuse, personal reasons. Sorry now..

[Denver 59 Fin Convert]

Rick, where is this Drumm 300F now. And if your father does donate them to the Historical Society, make copies of them for your own safe keeping.

John Q

[RICKYMOPAR]

John, I never asked who did purchase the 300 F. I think I know, but it is no business of mine now. About the papers and books, maybe send them copies and keep the originals. Years ago he gave hundreds of books to a Chrysler owners club. Now, no one knows what happened to them.

[Denver 59 Fin Convert]

Rick, depending on how many documents, we can go to my office some weekend a lay siege to my office copier. My father and grandfather did not keep much from their Chrysler engineering days.

I have not much to show from my 7 years at Chrysler either but then again, it was the mid 70's to early 80's, hardly the golden years...

But it would be neat to see what your father has still.

John Q.

[RICKYMOPAR]

Game on! I will take you up on the offer.
Some of the inter-office Communication are beond belief. The supplimental addendums are priceless.