'59 Sport Fury Power Brake Problem

[safety6]

I'm new to forum and this is my first post. Have oval bellows type booster. In neutral (i.e., not moving) brake pedal "shutters", when pressure is first applied. Then, brakes work but pedal soft. Recently, pedal went to floor. Fortunately going slow. Used emergency brake to stop. No evidence of fluid leaks, but haven't pulled wheels at this point. And, don't even know how to get to master cylinder to check fluid level. How do you do that without removing the booster? Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks - Safety6

[Matthew Keij]

You can remove the cap of the master cilinder and look at front fender level into the master cilinder.
It's kinda hard to do but it's possible.

Can you pm me some info of your Sport Fury!
Pics would be great including pictures of the data plate and VIN number.
It's all for my 59 Plymouth register

[rogerh]

I don't think its a booster problem. I think your master cylinder is either empty or failing. If you haven't looked into the master cylinder reservoir, it could be empty, or it could have failed internallly. You need to check the fluid level. How to do this with booster in the way? It isnt easy! The booster can be collapsed manually but then how to hold it in collapsed position while you do your inspection? I dunno, a pair of boards propped between booster and radiator support?
It is easier if the car is running and someone steps on the brake pedal. The booster will collapse and at that point you can open up the reservoir and do your inspection.
It is also possible to remove the brake fluid reservoir top while engine is stopped. You'll need an open end wrench, and some dexterity, that's for sure! I used to top off the fluid in the reservoir using a funnel with some tubing attached. I hope you can get a mental picture of what I am describing?

[safety6]

Matthew & Roger,

Thanks for your responses.

Matthew, I hope you received the photos I sent earlier. And, Roger I do get the picture. Great advice! I'll try it tomorrow.

[Denver 59 Fin Convert]

As Roger stated, it is not easy at all, do what Roger said and you will be fine. I also think the fluid is probably very low or maybe leaking at one of (if not more) of the wheel cylinders.

Also grab a mirror to help look at the single brake cylinder reservoir when you do get the lid off, it will help save the back!

I cheated on mine, I went to the dual master cylinder style and front disc brakes. Not original but .....

John Q.

[rogerh]

While I don't know what car-care skills you have, I will assume you are capable enough, because you own a '59 Plymouth!
Once you prop or clamp the booster out of the way, or do whatever you have to do to peer into the brake reservoir, I trust you know how to determine if the master cylinder is failing...Assuming you have fluid in there, the fluid level will not go down when pedal is depressed, suggesting the M/C seals have become hard and inflexible or have ripped or torn, and the fluid is not being sent to the wheels.
I hope you aren't facing a total brake job...a tedious and messy job. If the wheel cylinders are leaking, you'll need to re-line the shoes to get a truly dependable system.
On the last road trip I took with my SF, the pedal got soft, then a few miles later it went to the floor. Used downshifting and E-brake to slow down. I found out one of my new wheel cylinders had corroded and the seal failed, leaking fluid all over the front passenger drum. I think the failure was caused by a rusty metal brake line leading to that wheel. Making repairs in the motel parking lot, I used several aerosol cans of brake cleaner, and a new wheel cylinder to patch things up.
Matthew and Ron own the car now, so I don't know if my repairs have held up.

[safety6]

Would disconnecting the airline hose, from the accumulator, at the bellows end facilitate the compression of the bellows? Or, do I need a second person to depress the brake pedal to facilitate the compression, as Roger suggests?

Safety6

[Dick Koch]

Hi Safety 6 - I have power brakes on my SF with the metal canister (not the bellows) and it is not that hard to take the lid off the master cylinder, there is more room than you think. I have no experience with the bellows type booster but I would think there is the same amount of clearance so you can add brake fluid easily. Like John I have another SF with front disk brakes and a dual chamber master cylinder. At first I thought there could not possibley be enough room but there is plenty. Takes a couple times taking the lid off and then it becomes very easy. Normally with power brakes when you start the car with your foot on the brake pedal you will feel the pedal go down slightly but rather smoothly. I can't help you with the stuttering but you may want to check all the vacuum hoses to the bellows. The other possibilities would be the wheel cylinder hoses first then the wheel cylinders then the master cylinder and possibley the bellows. A good start is to look for brake fluid on the inside of the tires and or hoses. Another tip to make adding fluid to the master cylinder easier is to find a plastic brake fluid bottle about 2" dia. and 6" long with a cap like the one found on a Gear oil bottle. That way you can get it under the bellows without spilling brake fluid every where.
Good luck,
Dick

[safety6]

I disconnected the hose at the accumulator. Used two carpentry clamps to compress the booster bellows, providing easy access to the master cylinder (no mirror needed). I was very low on fluid. Filled the reservoir and all works fine, although I have a seal leaks. Since fluid was extremely dirty, decided to flush system and replace with a dual master cylinder found at Master Power (good tech. support guy - Mark (888)351-8785 x 201)). Also, has excellent website (http://www.mpbrakes.com) where I was able to get dimensioned drawing to verify bolt pattern on mounting flange (direct fit).

Good ideas made the job easy for this neophyte.

Thanks to all for your responses.

Safety6

ps. I took pictures but don't know how to post them. If anyone would like them, send me a personal message w/ your email address and I will forward as attachments.

[RICKYMOPAR]

Gees .... I never really had too many problems, using a really clean long nozzle oil can with a pump works great. No oil only DOT3 brake fluid. I keep my brake fluid delivery can empty amd inverted until next use, Reflush and fill, I still use plenty of towells to protect the finish.next..Pulsing booster assist could mean you need to adjust your engine's valves being I do not know what engine option you have. An old fashion vacuum gauge will help. Engine running and a steady fixed needle at idle, the booster control needs work, the needle jumping, the engine needs work. No mirrors no magic.

[rogerh]

I like the carpenters clamp solution! Resourceful, for sure!
Who knows where brake fluid goes, when one discovers a low level in reservoir. Yes, it's always wise to check the inward-facing sides of tires for signs of leaks.
You say you found a "seals leak". Does this mean the master cylinder seems to be not working perfectly? Replacing the M/C with a dual one is smart..although it won't look "original", you know you will be much safer on the road. One side of the dual system connects to LF and RR, the other side connects the RF and LR, correct?
Flush the system thoroughly...I found out the hard way that just ONE internally-rusty line can really mess up a road trip!
My question to Ricky is- which "valves" need adjusting? I really don't HAVE to know since I don't have a '59P, but I just don't recall any way to make adjustments to the braking system.
Maybe in later model cars the brake proportioning valves can be adjusted?

[Fins59]

Regarding adding brake fluid to single resesvoir...couple years ago I saw a '59 that had a small plastic bottle under hood with a clear vinyl hose running to master cylinder cover. The guy said he just kept botttle full and never had to remove that "hard to get at" cover. Never saw that before or since. He didn't have info on bottle and said it was on car when he bought it. I should have looked closer at how it was attached to the MC cover but didn't. Maybe I'll see it again this summer. A picture of it would be good. He lives about 50 miles from me.

I got front discs and a dual resesvoir MC so no hassle. If memory serves me right, I think MC and booster is off a '77 or thereabouts Plymouth Volare and bolts to firewall perfectly.

[Dick Koch]

I checked both of my cars, if you have a dual master cylinder the front chamber is for the rear drums and the rear cylinder is for the front drums. That's so if there is a failure the car will still stop in a straight line.
Dick.

[big m]

I like the carpenters clamp solution! Resourceful, for sure!
Who knows where brake fluid goes, when one discovers a low level in reservoir. Yes, it's always wise to check the inward-facing sides of tires for signs of leaks.
You say you found a "seals leak". Does this mean the master cylinder seems to be not working perfectly? Replacing the M/C with a dual one is smart..although it won't look "original", you know you will be much safer on the road. One side of the dual system connects to LF and RR, the other side connects the RF and LR, correct?
Flush the system thoroughly...I found out the hard way that just ONE internally-rusty line can really mess up a road trip!
My question to Ricky is- which "valves" need adjusting? I really don't HAVE to know since I don't have a '59P, but I just don't recall any way to make adjustments to the braking system.
Maybe in later model cars the brake proportioning valves can be adjusted?

Roger, Ricky was referring to the engine valve adjustment, it can cause erratic engine vacuum readings.

If I'm by myself and there is nobody that can depress the brake pedal, a transmission fill funnel [clean] makes filling the reservoir a snap.

---John

[Dick Koch]

Roger - You may be right about which wheels are on which chamber of the dual master cylinder. I saw an illustration showing the criss/cross pattern.
Dick.