It's 4th of July weekend, sunny and beautiful in Cleveland, and seemed like a perfect day for a drive. After fixing my Jeep CJ7, who's ignition module died this morning, I finally got my Savoy out of the drive for the first time this year. I drove it less than 1/2 a mile, to a gas station and back. and I noticed a strange whirring noise, seemed to be coming from the front of the transmission near the torque converter. I put her on jacks, removed the access plate, and took a look. I thought maybe the starter wasn't disengaging, but it seems to be. Fluid level is good (checked while running and warm ), I don't see anything that was rubbing or scraping, I'm kind of baffled. I don't have much automatic transmission experience, other than swapping them out, never had more than the pan off, never disassembled one. So the learning adventure continues. Guess I'll be looking on eBay and at Carlisle for a Powerflite manual.
The noise is a medium high pitch, sort of a whirring. It doesn't make the noise at idle, but starts at about 1500-2000 RPM, whether I am in gear or neutral. The transmission still shifts into the right gears, no slipping, but seems to lock slower than I remember.
I figure I'll start by dropping the pan and checking the pickup screen.If that's clean, I thought maybe it could be the trans pump. Is there a way to check the pump in the vehicle? Is there a way to rebuild the pump, or will I need a new one? Are they available anywhere, or recycling places only? Am I barking up the wrong tree? Could the kick down not being hooked up somehow cause the noise? I'd love to swap in a Torqueflite "someday", maybe I could find one at Carlisle, a scrap yard, or eBay. Just fixing the noise would make me happy for now though. I doubt I need to rebuild the transmission completely, it was pulling strong, even with the noise. Wow that was a mouthful of questions I just blurted out.
If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I was trying to avoid pulling the transmission again, but it looks like I may have no choice. I really should check the input shaft for strange wear.
I tried standing in front of her yelling "Show Me", I guess that only works on her older sister.
Last edited by mfpsky1 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I know basically nothing about transmissions. I flipped thru the shop manual I have, but could find no way to test the pumps with tranny in car.
Were I you, I'd do the obvious and relatively simple things first, such as check fluid level and condition, if problem persists, drop the pan, clean the pick up screen, and inspect pan closely for bits of metal, dirt, etc. which will clue you in to a problem. Other things the manual outlines are inspecting various parts and valves for scoring, sticking, etc, with pan off.
I thought my tranny was making noises, but after oiling an idler pulley on the engine,the squeal went away.
Our club president told a story where he was struggling to get his car back together in time for the show. A friend told him to calm down..."everything will be fine".
So, he persisted, got it done and made it to the show.Of course his car had other problems along the way, but the key here was he made it to the show,and had fun. Tha's what it's all about. My car's brakes failed at the show, but I fixed them with lots of help, was impressed with the willingness of club members to loan tools, etc, and I'm glad I went.
My brakes failed due to lack of use; maybe all your car needs is to get some miles put on her!
Thanks for your input, I'm going to try the easy stuff first. The fluid on the dipstick looks clean, and the level is good. I going to climb under and make sure the starter really is disengaging while running. I defiantly don't want to drive it til I trace this sound down. Too much chance of damage. It sounds really bad, and the faster the engine revs the louder it gets. I recorded the noise in case it helps diagnose it. Recorded it with my phone so it's not great... http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2527697/plymouth%20noise.3gpp
It's for sure in the bell housing area, only things I can figure would be the torque converter, starter or front trans pump.
Oh well 1st things 1st, going out to drop the pan. Does anyone know if it's safe to blow air through the cooler lines to clear the converter of old fluid, or is there some other way to do it?
Thanks again,
Jeff
Ron Keij gifted me a little booklet titled "Torqueflite Service Tips".
I wish I knew how to copy it to you in its entirety, even though you have a Powerflite.
On page 7, under "Flush the converter", it goes like this:
"Make sure the drain plug is in place. With a screwdriver, reach into the converter and turn the large splined stator hub counterclockwise until a rectangular slot can be seen at the top of the hub. Use a long-spout can to pour 2 qts of clean kerosene into the hub. Close the hub opening with masking tape. Remove the ignition coil wire so the engine won't start. Then, crank the engine for about 10 seconds to wash out the converter. Remove the masking tape and plug so the kerosene will drain out. Repeat the flushing operation until the drained kerosene is perfectly clear. Rotate the converter with the drain plug removed to wash out last traces of kerosene. Finally, reinstalll the drain plug."
I send this because I sense you will understand all of this!
That's good to hear for now, don't remember seeing a drain plug on the converter, that much easier than changing the fluid in the pan and trying to pump it out through the cooling lines. I can't visualize the slot in the hub, but I'm sure it will make more sense while looking at it. I plan on being under the car most of tomorrow. I'm not stopping until I at least diagnose the problem. Might be a long day...Wish I had a lift, or a deep trench.
Before you flush, purchase a PLYMOUTH service manual, go to the transmission troubleshooting section and follow the suggested checks first. The Power-flite is a great transmission, And is easy to overhaul. There is a pressure regulator and flow control valve-body directly behind the front pump. being your noise is happening in neutral I really doubt you have a torque converter problem.
Thank you both for all the help. The problem is solved. I drained the fluid and dropped the pan, and the problem was obvious. The pickup for the front pump was completely clogged.
I'd go back and complain to the transmission shop I went to years ago, but they have closed down. (Gee, wonder why.) I brought it in to be serviced, they told me it was in great shape, and they just slightly tightened the bands. (Charged me out the rear too!) They RTV sealed the pan on, but didn't clean the old gasket off, pieces of it were in the pan, and the rest disintegrated and ended up in the pickup screen. I'll change the fluid a few more times and keep an eye on it for a while to make sure it doesn't clog again.
They must have changed the design slightly somewhere along the line, there is no drain plug in the pan or converter.
I do really need the right service manual, right now I only have the 1959 Motor's Manual, and quite a bit of information is missing. I really want to find the Powerflite manual, and the '59 parts book too.(and the owners manual while I'm at it.) Maybe I'll find one of them at Carlisle.
Thanks again. Time For a nice long test drive now that the scary sound is gone.
Jeff
Hoorah! Now you make me want to do the same maintenance. Did you buy a new pan gasket, or use RTV sealant (they have new stuff that stands up to tranny fluid).
As for teh books, I dont recall there being a literature vendor at the Carlisle show I attended. If not, let us know, and I will look for my literature vendor's contact info.
I used Permatex "The Right Stuff". I've had good luck. With it in the past, and the gasket was 4 days away, and 2 times the price. Hasn't lost a drop yet and I just drove her about 20 miles. Although the front wheels rattled a bit. I have to check the drums and wheel bearings. She sat a long time.
I'm glad I pulled the trasns pan. It's shifting much better and I adjusted the push button control while I could see the detentes, it was mush easier while I could see what the cable was moving.
The books I have seen on eBay, I just rarely have the money at the same time. Someday...
These are the books you'll want. I don't recall what I paid for them...seems the Parts Book was $60, the set of 3 Manuals was probably more.
What are they getting for them on eBay?
(I can scan anything you might need, I'm just not very comuter-savvy.)
Prices are all over the place on these depending on condition of originals, some are reprints, some are on CD as PDFs (and are search-able), most are pretty pricey though. Reprints of the books seem most expensive. So far I've managed all my repairs with a Motor's manual, it not as detailed though.
rogerh wrote:These are the books you'll want. I don't recall what I paid for them...seems the Parts Book was $60, the set of 3 Manuals was probably more.
What are they getting for them on eBay?
(I can scan anything you might need, I'm just not very computer-savvy.)PICT0005.JPG
Hi Roger, the set of 3 manuals you show here are from Chrysler Canada and deal with Canadian made models, and there is some differences as ive found out recently, for example i mentioned in another thread that my head gasket went the other day, but no biggie, as i had one, but when i got it apart the gasket i have is for a 230 cubic inch 6, mine being a Canadian car its equipped with a 251 cubic inch 6, which is called a "251 long block", fortunately, the knowledgeable parts guy at the local NAPA knew to look up under Dodge trucks to find me the right head gasket, there is some other differences in V8 models for Canada as well, just thought id point this out....
), I don't see anything that was rubbing or scraping, I'm kind of baffled. I don't have much automatic transmission experience, other than swapping them out, never had more than the pan off, never disassembled one. So the learning adventure continues. Guess I'll be looking on eBay and at Carlisle for a Powerflite manual.
Does anyone know if it's safe to blow air through the cooler lines to clear the converter of old fluid, or is there some other way to do it?
